Walt Stoneburner ([info]whiskeyrivers) wrote,
@ 2006-07-22 18:23:00
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Current location:Over Here
Current music:"You wanna what?" by Read To Me
Entry tags:experiment

Looking for a good romance trash novel. Recommendations?
Guys are visually stimulated; open a centerfold, and a women doesn't get it.

Women are more scenario based; open a trashy romance novel, and a man doesn't get it.

Well, I wanna see what all the fuss is about. I wanna read a trashy romance novel.

Any recommendations? I only want to read one... so make it good.


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[info]whingnut
2006-07-24 03:54 pm UTC (link)


Honey, women are just down right finicky...it's not just scenario-based, it's based on the ideals/kink of eacj particular individual.
The vampire-based, bdsm-laced novel that rocks one person's world will make the next girl shudder and pray for the soul of the first, while the "regency' (subgenre of romance) novel that works for the second girl bores the third one to tears.
The thing about romance that makes it so dicey to recommend to another person is that women don't read just for the story...they want a heroine that they can completely identify with because they're reading it for vicarious, no-consequences sex.

Girl 1 Says Girl 2 Says Girl 3 Says


G1- Wow! That guy is so sweet and such a gentleman!

G2- That guy is lame.

G3- That guy reminds me of my ex. Gross!


G1- That girl is so strong! I LOVE her!

G2- That girl is a b*. I HATE her!

G3-That girl is clearly a lesbian, but this still works for me...
what does that mean?


Also, given the vicarious sex aspect of it, most of your female friends are likely to be squicked at the idea of suggesting anything to you. Too much information, you know?

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So it is porn?
[info]whiskeyrivers
2006-07-24 06:26 pm UTC (link)
So basically what you're saying is that trash novels are not just a quick read for entertainment value, but that they actually do have some sexual purpose, and that asking "what novel do you recommend" is like one guy asking another what his specific tastes are in a visual image? Consequently, what a guy deems to be a fairly innocent question actually exposes a woman's personal tastes too publically?

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Re: So it is porn?
[info]dravon
2006-07-24 06:53 pm UTC (link)
Yes, it's porn. Some books are graphic with details, others are more implied. But it's still porn featuring an emotional attachment that isn't present in most male-oriented porn.

Want to find a good trashy romance? Go to the Romance section of the bookstore and find a back cover that appeals to you. Just don't read it with an eye for the plot, or even what the scenarios are. Read it with an eye for the way in which the emotions of the 2 main characters are portrayed - that's the heart-and-soul of a good romance, imho.

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Re: So it is porn?
[info]whingnut
2006-07-25 01:15 am UTC (link)
what a guy deems to be a fairly innocent question actually exposes a woman's personal tastes too publically?


Dravon beat me to the punch, but that's /exactly/ what I'm saying.

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It's porn.
[info]whiskeyrivers
2006-07-25 01:24 am UTC (link)
Ok -- then to the _real_ root of the posting.

Why then do women get so friggin' upset at guy who looks at a quick image, yet it turns out that convertly they often have a library filled with volumes of this stuff and spend considerable time with it?

It seems so double standard.


(Anyhow, if anyone out there -is- willing to suggest a book, I'd still apprecitate it. Post anonymously if you must.)

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Re: It's porn.
[info]viedma
2006-07-25 01:39 am UTC (link)
Why then do women get so friggin' upset at guy who looks at a quick image, yet it turns out that convertly they often have a library filled with volumes of this stuff and spend considerable time with it?

It's a cliche that women like stories and costumes and characters, but it's a cliche that I understand. Trashy stories are just more fun.

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Trash Novels are Fun
[info]whiskeyrivers
2006-07-25 02:00 am UTC (link)
I can certainly relate to the fact that something does not have to have depth in order to be entertaining. Years of Saturday morning cartoons taught me that!

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Aha! So now we know...
[info]whingnut
2006-07-25 04:28 pm UTC (link)



I asked Danny last night what the real question /was/ here, but he didn't know...now that I know what the actual question is, I can answer it more effectively ***as with the romance question, though, I can only answer for myself, the answer will vary from woman to woman.***


Pictorial porn versus trash novels versus erotica...


Firstly, it's about fantasy versus reality.

/But/ it's also about levels and degrees.

Finally for me, it's about not wanting women to sell themselves


Item one... In a romance novel, no matter how sordid or filthy, it's merely /an idea/. It's something that the author fabricated out of thin air which you can then toy with and see if /you/ want to try it. It's a way of expanding your sexual repertoire (at least your conceptual repertoire) without risk, consequences or humiliation of any kind.
In the case of pictorial porn, whether the guy views it as a fantasy or not, some real, live girl somewhere undervalued herself enough to accept money to make herself a sex object.
The argument that that's her choice is bullshit because the objectification of women hurts all women.
I personally do not consent to being viewed as anybody's toy, therefore I don't dress, posture, or conduct myself in any manner that would suggest that I ever would be. However, thanks to the societal acceptance of women using their bodies for merchandising, let alone porn, it's something that's a reality of my and every other woman's existance anyway.
Also, it's harmless for a person to register that another person of the opposite sex is attractive, have that "whoa!" moment, and move on. Repetitively seeking out highly suggestive and sexualized images of women is just feeding lust. The innocent appreciation of an attractive form is gone, and basically what a man is saying to his partner when he does that is "you are not enough for me, THIS is what I really want".
Romance novels, once again, are purely fantasy and just give you ideas for spicing up the sex life you actually have. They don't attempt to sell anybody, not a man as an object, not a woman as an object...just an idea.

Item two...Just as with pictorial porn, there are levels and degrees. A Vargas cheesecake pinup is not a Playboy spread is not a Hustler layout is not a snuff video. You asked specifically about cheesy romance novels, which can go from the Barbara Cartland regency stories where nobody ever has sex, to stuff by Laurel K. Hamilton where her main character has sex with everybody in reach, multiples, and were-creatures in animal form.
There's such a broad range in romance that nothing at all at could happen, apart from the two lead characters finding each other, overcoming some obstacle and falling in love to well...every conceivable thing else.
With pictorial porn (the days of the relatively innocent Vargas calendar girls being long past), you always start from the same point. Somebody got naked for money. Somebody sold herself.


Item three...If you haven't already had it pounded into your skull from items one and two, I've got a serious problem with women selling themselves, because of what it does to all of us, but also because I want women to value themselves more than that.
I am always in awe of the power that sleeps in the female soul. Porn sells us out and sells us short, and as long as women allow themselves to be used as merely bodies, that power is going to go right on sleeping.







(Reply to this) (Parent)
Another idea
[info]viedma
2006-07-25 01:30 am UTC (link)
if you're looking for something smutty is to read some fanfic. What's your favorite TV show, google a fanfic archive for it or some fanfic recs, and you'll find gobs of stuff free for the reading. Much of it eye-bleedingly bad, but then again, most things are.

I don't know if you'll find everything you're looking for in *one* romance novel (that would be a difficult task for any genre) but once upon a time I thought Anne Rice's Belinda was the bee's knees. That was in high school, and taste's change, but damn I loved that book. I bought it secondhand tattered and stamped from a nearby correctional facility, which only added to its charm. A sweeter novel that I read more recently is Size 12 is Not Fat by Meg Cabot. Not trashy, more breezy, but very very fun.

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Belinda
[info]whiskeyrivers
2006-07-25 02:01 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the recommendation. If no other recommendations surface, this may be the one. Any insight as what to expect?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Belinda
[info]viedma
2006-07-26 02:40 am UTC (link)
For Belinda or for fanfic? Belinda 1st. Laurie and I were talking about this last night and agreed that Anne Rice is great at telling traditional romances with a veneer of smutty respectibility. As far as fanfic goes, be prepared to read a lot of stories by sixth graders at first, but eventually you'll find recs from people whose taste you trust. FWIW, my wife just did a website update; her fanfic recs are here.

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[info]poetesskris
2006-07-26 02:50 am UTC (link)
I really don't read the stuff. Quite frankly, I don't get to read much
of anything these days other than kids books. But I have read a few.
Flight of the Kestral was one. I think it appealed to me for the same
reason Romantic Comedies appeal to me, or what you would call a "Chick
Flick". You can let yourself flow into the story, and for a moment,
forget your mundane life, and live the life of an exciting, beautiful,
woman who takes chances that you would not. It's safe. You know you
are not going to be turned down, or embarressed, but you still get the
adventure. For me, it wasn't about the sex, but about the relationship.
Dating is exciting.

I've read some more hard core Fantasy stuff too...can't seem to remember
the titles...Gor series??

As far as men looking at pictures of women? I agree with Whingnut.

WHINGNUT said:
and basically what a man is saying to his partner when he does that is "you are not enough for me, THIS is what I really want".

It hurts a great deal because either your husband loves you, and only
you, and loves you the way you need to be loved, or he loves you, but
is still looking for something else, like marrying you may have been
a mistake, and he's looking for the rest elsewhere.

Why don't I read that kind of book? I do feel like I would be cheating
on my husband in some way. Why? Because I would be looking for something
in them, a connection on a deep spiritual level, that I am not looking for
in my husband.

In other words, Guys need the sex. Girls need the snuggle. Either way,
you are getting something from someone or something else that your
partner should be capable of giving you. If not, you need to work on
your marriage instead of escaping from it through books and magazines.



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Recommendations
[info]whiskeyrivers
2006-07-27 07:42 pm UTC (link)
I was actually lucky enough to not only have someone recommend one title, but two, and then proceed to lend them to me. This helps because now I also have someone who I can discuss them with, should I come across something I don't understand.

I think women seem to enjoy having a private world, away from public scrutiny, that they can retreat to, where they can "explore" and feel safe, because the social structure doesn't allow that. Other countries don't seem to label their women as the United States for liking such stuff or being as open; it was suggested this is merely a byproduct of our puritan roots.

You did mention this, though: 'what a man is saying to his partner when he does that is "you are not enough for me, THIS is what I really want"'.

Two points.

One, as a man, I'd never trade the reality of what I have for the fictional fantasy, nor do I expect or try to hold any one up to the measuring stick of fantasy. While women say they they are less affected by looks, they certainly appreciate the square jaw, the ripped abs, the tight curved butt, the defined pecks, the strong arms, the firm legs, and a sizable bulge. To be honest, I've heard women be far more graphic than the worst private men-only conversation.

Two, reading such romance novels could also convey to the guy, "you don't provide me the same adventure, excitement, and more importantly romance, that I need, and THIS is what I really want." And, lacking a ship and open sea, pirate suit, knowledge of fencing, endless supplies of wealth, and an infinite supply of time, ...she ain't gonna get it either.

And, on retrospect, I'm also having a harder time with the concept of global devaluization. The sense of value is in the eye of the beholder, and while one person may devalue (for whatever reasons), another may not; in fact, some may actually grow an appreciation. The act of undressing play little role, since anyone who devaluizes doesn't need for the person to be nude.

I suspect, however, another aspect is that women are simply asking not to be evaluated on looks alone. And, to that end, I think that's really the case. A super model with a cigarette is going to rank lower [to me] than an average non-smoker. A "pretty" drunk college girl is going to rank much lower than an average sober person [to me]. A bitchy attitude, an empowerment stance, or a gob of makeup can be just as much of a turn off.

A person who's fun, open, and playful can use that personality to beat out "someone with looks" anytime.

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